Motion 2010-07 - CYCC Rule Amendments

[Bob Armstrong]

Xuekun wrote me and asked if I'd post her questions on Motion 2010-07 since she for some reason doesn't yet have access to post. Here is what she wrote:

" 1. My question is: In the motion, it is not clearly stated which year's CYCC result will be used for the selection. I guess we just have two options, either current year or previous year.

2. if current year CYCC result will be used, how about Pan Am or NYCC happens before CYCC or they are just one month apart, like this year, CYCC will finish on July 9 and players need to take the flight to Pan Am on July 30 (latest). Pam Am will be at Brazil and it is too short of notice for the parents. Again, how about next year Pan Am is before CYCC?

3. if we use previou year's CYCC result, this could generate a potential problem due to players' age group. We could have two players who are both qualified for one event at the same gender and same age group, but we (each country) is only allowed to send one official player (whose meal and accomendation) will be paied by FIDE, but not two.

4. regardless the motion, it will be effective next year, so what policy we will use for this year? Pan Am is coming (August 1-11) and both players and parents should know what is the selection policy at the end of April. am I correct? "

Michael Barron, Youth Coordinator, and mover of the motion, advised he would post a reply shortly.

Bob

[Michael Barron]

Xuekun wrote me and asked if I'd post her questions on Motion 2010-07 since she for some reason doesn't yet have access to post. Here is what she wrote:

" 1. My question is: In the motion, it is not clearly stated which year's CYCC result will be used for the selection. I guess we just have two options, either current year or previous year.

2. if current year CYCC result will be used, how about Pan Am or NYCC happens before CYCC or they are just one month apart, like this year, CYCC will finish on July 9 and players need to take the flight to Pan Am on July 30 (latest). Pam Am will be at Brazil and it is too short of notice for the parents. Again, how about next year Pan Am is before CYCC?

3. if we use previou year's CYCC result, this could generate a potential problem due to players' age group. We could have two players who are both qualified for one event at the same gender and same age group, but we (each country) is only allowed to send one official player (whose meal and accomendation) will be paied by FIDE, but not two.

4. regardless the motion, it will be effective next year, so what policy we will use for this year? Pan Am is coming (August 1-11) and both players and parents should know what is the selection policy at the end of April. am I correct? "

Michael Barron, Youth Coordinator, and mover of the motion, advised he would post a reply shortly.

Bob

Thank you, Xuekun, for good questions!

I believe, many chess parents want to know answers.
Here they are:

1. Yes, the motion says nothing about which year's CYCC results will be used for the selection, and does it on purpose.
For selection will be used the results of the last CYCC at the deadline for registration.
You're right - we have two options: either current year or previous year.

2. If current year CYCC results will be used, like this year, and it is too short notice for the parents, they should start planning a trip beforehand.
All CYCC participants will be allowed to play at Pan Am and NAYCC, the CYCC will decide who of them will win a prize - the right to be an official Canadian representative.

3. If we use previous year's CYCC result, and we have two players who are both qualified for one event at the same gender and same age group, the CFC Youth Committee will make a decision.

4. We will use the same policy this year:
CYCC is finishing July 9,
deadline for registration for Pan Am - July 12,
deadline for registration for NAYCC - July 12 as well.
This year is very good to start using CYCC as a qualifier for international youth competitions - all of them could use the current year CYCC results for qualification.

It means that parents and players, who want to participate at Pan Am and NAYCC, should start preparation to these tournaments now.

Please let me know if you have additional questions.

[Bob Armstrong]

Xuekun thanked Michael for his responses and also asked the further following questions:

Hi, Michael:

I saw the post and thanks very much for answering my questions. So it is clear that from 2010, current year's CYCC result will be sued for the selection. BUT, this comes to one of my questions whcih I don't think you answer it completely.

CYCC ends on July 9 and Pan Am and NYCC will close the registration on July 12. It is TOO short of notiifcation for parents (3 days) to think they they need to go for a trip which will take 12 hours flight. You are right, we should start the prep now but in the real world, I guess only the "official player" whose cost will be covered will go. That's mean most likely the 2nd place will go, but who knows your kids will get 2nd or not?
Do you see what I mean? And at the same time, parents (working parents) need to take vacation request for two weeks. It is not pleasant that you informed your supervisor that you will be away and at the end you will end up cancle it. Air ticket is another issue. If I see something on sale in May or June, I can not purchase it since I am not sure if my kids will be "official players" or not. If I wait till July 12, the price might be skyhigh since it is too close to the departure date. You know it is very costly for the family to go to a trip like this.

Bob, could you please help me to post my comment one moe time and Michael please let me know your thought.

Again, like WYCC, majority of players are 1st, you don't see that many 2nd or 3rd place players attend. Cost is one of the major issues. But WYCC gives parents at least 3 month to prep.

Thanks.

xuekun

[Michael Barron]

Yes, Xuekun, the CYCC ends on July 9 and Pan Am and NAYCC will close the registration on July 12.
It means that parents should start the preparation now.

There are 2 questions here:
1) Who can play at Pan Am?
2) Who will be the official Canadian player?

These are separate questions, and let's consider them separately.

The first answer is clear: every CYCC participant can play at Pan Am.
The second answer is not so clear: it depends...
It depends on many factors, and the exact answer we will know only after CYCC.

Yes, a trip like this is very costly for the family, and whether a player is the "official player" does not make much difference.

WYCC is a good example:
Usually there are more additional players from Canada at the WYCC, than "official players".

Let me ask you, Xuekun:
In your estimate, how much will cost a trip to Pan Am for your family, if Jackie will be the official Canadian player?
And how much if not?

[Kerry Liles]

Yes, Xuekun, the CYCC ends on July 9 and Pan Am and NAYCC will close the registration on July 12.
It means that parents should start the preparation now.

There are 2 questions here:
1) Who can play at Pan Am?
2) Who will be the official Canadian player?

These are separate questions, and let's consider them separately.

The first answer is clear: every CYCC participant can play at Pan Am.
The second answer is not so clear: it depends...
It depends on many factors, and the exact answer we will know only after CYCC.

Yes, a trip like this is very costly for the family, and whether a player is the "official player" does not make much difference.

WYCC is a good example:
Usually there are more additional players from Canada at the WYCC, than "official players".

Let me ask you, Xuekun:
In your estimate, how much will cost a trip to Pan Am for your family, if Jackie will be the official Canadian player?
And how much if not?

OBVIOUSLY the difference is only the portion that *may* be paid by some outside agency like the CFC. Instead of being patronizing, why don't you simply consider Xuekun's (valid) points and perhaps offer some useful advice?

Clearly, if you have to take a family of 4 (for example) on what amounts to a family vacation [including a chess tournament for one of the children] then the cost of one person (especially a child's portion) is a relatively small portion of the total.

The fact that the final answer is not known until the 11th hours makes getting travel deals nearly impossible; that would seem to increase the chances that NO ONE will accept the "PRIZE"

[Steve Douglas]

OBVIOUSLY the difference is only the portion that *may* be paid by some outside agency like the CFC. Instead of being patronizing, why don't you simply consider Xuekun's (valid) points and perhaps offer some useful advice?

Clearly, if you have to take a family of 4 (for example) on what amounts to a family vacation [including a chess tournament for one of the children] then the cost of one person (especially a child's portion) is a relatively small portion of the total.

The fact that the final answer is not known until the 11th hours makes getting travel deals nearly impossible; that would seem to increase the chances that NO ONE will accept the "PRIZE"

Hi Kerry:

I'm not sure Michael is intending to be patronizing. If the policy of the CFC is that it is the most recent CYCC that determines a subsidy for other events (or "official" recognition), and that said events are "open" events anyway, then it follows that it is up to the families to make their plans in advance. Because, as you say, it is likely to end up as a family trip anyway, the fact that any possible subsidy may not be known until the last minute doesn't really have a serious impact. Essentially families should plan in advance if they want to attend tournament X or tournament Y and expect no subsidy.

However, from a CFC standpoint, this policy is worrying. It means that the "official" Canadian representative won't be known until the very last minute which gives little opportunity for planning, marketing, or publicity (gee, there's a thought). In fact, I can see it as being negative publicity when Kerry Liles Junior wins his age category but declines to go to World Chess Circus and the CFC gets to announce the the 10th-place kid will go because he's the only one who was prepared to do so.

As you say with the current method, most families will have to decide in advance if they want to go, and then the CFC will have to go through the list of the top finishers to find one who is already committed to going.

I don't think the policy really hurts the families that are planning to go. It may or may not hurt those that are on the bubble (i.e. the subsidy makes a difference). Older players are more likely to be on the bubble since you could have several families sending kids and pooling money to fund an adult chaperone. Where it really has an impact is with the image and/or role of the CFC in choosing representatives.

Steve

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi, Michael:

..........I would like more people to see this issue and open the discussion. ...............

Yes, you are correct. The support for official player is not that much when you consider the total amount of trip cost (I think it will be around 20% if only my husband goes with her or myself, I mean one adult).
Michael, you have to think it this way, I know there are wealthy families there but we don't belong to one of them and I do believe most of the kids who play chess, their family don't belong to them. By saying that, 20% save is tremendous for our family. Without that 20% support, we might not be able to afford the trip, that menas couple of hundred dollars DO mean sth. to us.

Second, as I siad before, if she is not the official player, we might not even go because of the cost (I feel so guilty about myself since she is such a good player, I would not do my part to support her). Also, you know the time comsuming of planning the trip, you have to fish the cheal air ticket (will be $1500 and over for one, I did some work already), find the cheal hotel and so on. Also we are working family and we need to take vacation time (2 weeks) to bring her there. I can not tell my supervisor on July 9 (actually it is a Fri and she might leave the office when we have the CYCC result) says I will be away for 2 weeks starting from July 30. Again, it is TOO short of notice and it is not polite, plus the nature of my work, we need to plan summer vacation now.

In summary, it is NOT feasible to use this year's CYCC to determine the Pan Am since these two events are TOO close, even NYCC, we have the same issue. The good thing is because it is in Montreal, for us it is 5 hours driving, but as a Youth Coordinator, you have to consider the kids from BC, AB etc. For their family, it is a big trip.

As a Youth Coordinator, could you please kindly reconsider my suggestion and discuess with your committee about the rule for this year? I guess no family who wants to go to Pan Am will accept that you will tell them the result on July 9 and the registration will close on July 12. Also please keep in mind we are at the end of April already.

One more thing, in your response you said Usually there are more additional players from Canada at the WYCC, than "official players". I could not comments before year 2008 but since we went to WYCC in 2008 and both of my duaghters qualified for WYCC in 2009, I can tell you that this conclusion is totally wrong. There are more official players than non officila players, plus from CYCC to WYCC, we have at least 3 month to prep, that's why you have some non official players, plus at least two families in 2008 went with non official player kids is because their siblings was the champion, Jackie is one of them. If you tell them I give you three days to think going to Turkey, no one will go. It is TOO short of notice.

Kerry, thanks for your support even though I don't know who you are...

xuekun

[Michael Barron]

Hi, Michael:

Yes, you are correct. The support for official player is not that much when you consider the total amount of trip cost (I think it will be around 20% if only my husband goes with her or myself, I mean one adult).
Michael, you have to think it this way, I know there are wealthy families there but we don't belong to one of them and I do believe most of the kids who play chess, their family don't belong to them. By saying that, 20% save is tremendous for our family. Without that 20% support, we might not be able to afford the trip, that menas couple of hundred dollars DO mean sth. to us.

Second, as I siad before, if she is not the official player, we might not even go because of the cost (I feel so guilty about myself since she is such a good player, I would not do my part to support her). Also, you know the time comsuming of planning the trip, you have to fish the cheal air ticket (will be $1500 and over for one, I did some work already), find the cheal hotel and so on. Also we are working family and we need to take vacation time (2 weeks) to bring her there. I can not tell my supervisor on July 9 (actually it is a Fri and she might leave the office when we have the CYCC result) says I will be away for 2 weeks starting from July 30. Again, it is TOO short of notice and it is not polite, plus the nature of my work, we need to plan summer vacation now.

In summary, it is NOT feasible to use this year's CYCC to determine the Pan Am since these two events are TOO close, even NYCC, we have the same issue. The good thing is because it is in Montreal, for us it is 5 hours driving, but as a Youth Coordinator, you have to consider the kids from BC, AB etc. For their family, it is a big trip.

As a Youth Coordinator, could you please kindly reconsider my suggestion and discuess with your committee about the rule for this year? I guess no family who wants to go to Pan Am will accept that you will tell them the result on July 9 and the registration will close on July 12. Also please keep in mind we are at the end of April already.

One more thing, in your response you said Usually there are more additional players from Canada at the WYCC, than "official players". I could not comments before year 2008 but since we went to WYCC in 2008 and both of my duaghters qualified for WYCC in 2009, I can tell you that this conclusion is totally wrong. There are more official players than non officila players, plus from CYCC to WYCC, we have at least 3 month to prep, that's why you have some non official players, plus at least two families in 2008 went with non official player kids is because their siblings was the champion, Jackie is one of them. If you tell them I give you three days to think going to Turkey, no one will go. It is TOO short of notice.

Kerry, thanks for your support even though I don't know who you are...

xuekun

Hi, Xuekun:

First, I would like to congratulate Jackie for winning Ontario Chess Challenge last Sunday!
As was mentioned, she's the first girl since 2001 who made Ontario Team for Canadian Chess Challenge.
She certainly deserves this victory, and I'm sure, she will be one of main contenders for winning Canadian Chess Challenge next month!

But...
Please think for a moment:
If a month ago you were asking "Is Jackie qualified for Canadian Chess Challenge final?" - what answer would you get?

Please understand:
the right to represent Canada at Pan Am is a prize that could be won at CYCC.
Of course, Jackie deserves this prize, and I'm sure, she will easily win it.

But you can't claim a prize before the competition, even if you deserve it.

If you need my advice, here it is:
Please start preparation for Pan Am now - talk to your supervisor and ask for vacation, look for affordable airplane tickets and buy them, if you find a good deal, and encourage Jackie's chess studies and preparation for CYCC.

July 12 I will send Canadian registration form to Pan Am organizers, and no doubt, Jackie will be one of official Canadian players.

[Eric Hansen]

The deadline to register is July the 10th according to the flyer http://fideamerica.com/2010/abril/23...VAL%202010.pdf. I am seriously considering to play the Pan-Am instead of the World Junior, and that would give me one day to book everything. I will probably only go to the Pan-Am if I'm the official player. With one day (or even 3) to get everything organized, and to book flights to Brazil which is a popular summer destination seems VERY inconvenient and impractical to me. Other than the example you used, how many other players are sure they will win first place? Ridiculous logic really. People want to have their summers planned out beforehand. Also, traveling to CYCC with a parent is quite expensive and most players wont be able to afford to compete internationally and nationally (regardless if they win 1st). There's a reason why we have the worst participation in the Pan-Ams out of virtually every nation in the Americas. Instead, we will have a lot of categories with no official players (wasted chances and $). Truthfully, this event benefits most of our players just as much as the World Youth, except that it takes place conveniently during the summer without school. There should be much more emphasis on this event, where Canadians have a better chance yet still gain international exposure, than WYCC. So I suggest to make the pan-ams open to any eligible (canadian and under 18) player for starters. No CYCC required. Various options for deciding the official player but just don't leave it till last minute like the CYCC.


Actually there many backwards things I could rant about in regards to our youth program but I could talk about it all day and not get anything solved. It is the majority of the case that most of our ambitious juniors in this new generation that these laws apply to(WYCC,pan-ams,etc) have arrived at the level they are at with essentially zero help from the CFC youth program. You may think this is the norm but in many comparable countries there is significant effort to develop youth chess instead of waiting for it to come on its own. While I'm sure my opinion on these matters is more valuable and accurate than almost anyone's based on experience, I really won't push too hard for changes because I have other things to fix first (such as my chess) and the complaints usually land on deaf/ignorant ears anyways.

[Andrei Botez]

Hello Michael,

Last year the PanAmerican Youth were in the same time with CYCC. For that reason the kids who won the CYCC were not able to participate in PanAmerican Youth. This year I would offer the representative place to 2nd place in last yearCYCC (first place went to WYCC), if the player is not going, I would offer it to any of the top 3 places (tied included). If is more then one, they can split the cost. If no player wants to go from the top 3, I will give it to the highest rated player from the ones who email their intentions to you before a certain date.
I would use the results from this year CYCC for the next year PanAmerican Youth.

Andrei